tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post116542972416903354..comments2024-03-28T21:41:57.264-05:00Comments on Pacifist Viking: On the synthetic NBA basketballPacifist Vikinghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16630996018868040440noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165528498509907032006-12-07T15:54:00.000-06:002006-12-07T15:54:00.000-06:00Stick to the Vikings.Stick to the Vikings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165510496359805082006-12-07T10:54:00.000-06:002006-12-07T10:54:00.000-06:00As a pacifist, I've grappled with this too. I've ...As a pacifist, I've grappled with this too. I've determined that there is a difference between fantasy violence and actual violence. Morality from fiction can bleed into or change morality in reality, but I have a conscious recognition of the difference. Furthermore, as Martin Barker says of those who claim fantasy violence makes people violent: "Their claim is that the materials they judge to be harmful can only influence us by trying to mkae us be the same as them. So horrible things will make us horrible--not horrified. Terrifying things will make us terrifying--not terrified. To see something aggressive makes us feel aggressive--not aggressed against. This idea is so odd, it is hard to know where to begin challenging it." <BR/>Usually watching violence in movies further convinces me that violence in real life is bad.Pacifist Vikinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16630996018868040440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165505920837475272006-12-07T09:38:00.000-06:002006-12-07T09:38:00.000-06:00Oh, and I dont consider you a flip-flopper, I know...Oh, and I dont consider you a flip-flopper, I know that you have had moral arguments and grappled with it all as you have come to this conclusion.<BR/><BR/>I respect your stance more than I respect people who are vegan/vegetarian and yet somehow claim "fish" dont count and they go ahead and eat them.Blue Viking Devilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816148189650832893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165505825998793642006-12-07T09:37:00.000-06:002006-12-07T09:37:00.000-06:00PV, I know that you try to live you life consisten...PV, I know that you try to live you life consistently by what you believe and you are right my attitude is not going to change (right now at least). I am not trying to bait you, but rather seriously am wondering what the connection is between fiction-reality in terms of morality.<BR/><BR/>I understand you distinction between a Horror film and your Charlotte's Web example, but I still wonder about the moral implications of taking some kind of joy in watching a horror film and its moral effects in reality. If you dont want to discuss it here, well then I can wait until I am in the frozen tundra of Minnesota over Christmas. Maybe over a beer with Kiah.Blue Viking Devilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816148189650832893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165505356401761522006-12-07T09:29:00.000-06:002006-12-07T09:29:00.000-06:00When I watch horror movies, I'm not sympathizing w...When I watch horror movies, I'm not sympathizing with the murderers and torturers.<BR/>Regardless of whether personification exists, a story like "Charlotte's Web" asks you to sympathize with a farm animal that does not want to be slaughtered and eaten. If you want to sympathize with Wilbur, but then eat meat, just know that you are essentially one of the "bad guys" from the movie. You're one of the people who wants Wilbur to be eaten. But don't watch the film and sympathize with the piglet and feel you're morally "clean" regarding it. <BR/><BR/>But it is pointless to discuss this with you. You eat meat and you will continue to eat meat. You have no desire to change your behavior or change your moral attitudes or beliefs. If you even argue about this, you are either just arguing for the sake of argument, or merely looking for ways to justify the behavior you don't want to change.<BR/><BR/>People make fun of me for being a flip-flopper. But say this about me: I make overt attempt to live my life by the principles I wrestle with. I'm willing to have my mind and life changed by an idea. When I'm arguing about ethics, I'm cutting to the quick and I'm willing to live by what I'm arguing about.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, as I've said, I didn't write this post to make an argument about animal consumption on my sports blog (I have Costanza Book Club for that). I'm guessing you know that but are just trying to bait me into it anyway (for those who don't know, "blue viking devil" is my "real life" friend who does things like that).Pacifist Vikinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16630996018868040440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165504806662648382006-12-07T09:20:00.000-06:002006-12-07T09:20:00.000-06:00I guess my essential question is what is the relat...I guess my essential question is what is the relationship between morality in fiction and reality?<BR/><BR/>If I connect with a vengeance murder in fiction (i.e. a dad avenging the murder of his son/daughter/wife) but oppose murder of all types in reality, do I have inner turmoil that I need to work out because of the moral inconsistency?Blue Viking Devilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816148189650832893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165503771605858272006-12-07T09:02:00.000-06:002006-12-07T09:02:00.000-06:00I would say the line gets blurry when one person "...I would say the line gets blurry when one person "personifies" animals for a story and when people write the same way except believe that they are doing this to raise the awareness of individual personalities and emotions of animals.<BR/><BR/>The broader audience is not able to discern if the writer/author is doing this to show that animals are beings that deserve rights or if they are just trying to tell a human moral story using animals.<BR/><BR/>Obviously I know that fiction is related to reality and existence, essentially an interpretation and telling of existence, but I am not sure of the moral implications it imposes on me because animals are the characters.<BR/><BR/>Can I ask what happens in reverse? By this I mean, do you have internal struggle if in reality you believe it is wrong to torture and murder someone but you totally enjoy watching a movie like "Saw" or "Hostel"?Blue Viking Devilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816148189650832893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165503354373852292006-12-07T08:55:00.000-06:002006-12-07T08:55:00.000-06:00If you expect me to believe "fiction" is something...If you expect me to believe "fiction" is something separate and meaningless from existence and the psyche, that no themes from fiction have moral resonance, or that emotions felt from fiction have no impact on emotional and rational attitudes toward reality, you're talking to the wrong person.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I think there is something wildly inconsistent about enjoying a film or book that identifies with a piglet that doesn't want to be eaten, then eating ham.Pacifist Vikinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16630996018868040440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165502983876593802006-12-07T08:49:00.000-06:002006-12-07T08:49:00.000-06:00An imposed emotion in fictional stories is suppose...An imposed emotion in fictional stories is suppose to cause me to have inner turmoil?Blue Viking Devilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816148189650832893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165499341095725182006-12-07T07:49:00.000-06:002006-12-07T07:49:00.000-06:00blue viking devil, I said I wasn't trying to start...blue viking devil, I said I wasn't trying to start an argument over that here, but I don't see how people can watch movies as kids that show animals as these emotional creatures, or that emphasize the sadness in life for these creatures when they're killed for food, but grow up and think that has nothing at all to do with animal consumption. It's like living two lives; one where you love your dog and another where you eat cows. It makes less sense to me every day.<BR/><BR/>If parents bring their kids to see "Charlotte's Web" before Christmas, then feed their kids a big juicy Christmas ham, I no longer believe moral consistency is possible.Pacifist Vikinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16630996018868040440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165462838807658862006-12-06T21:40:00.000-06:002006-12-06T21:40:00.000-06:00I know this wasn't your desired effect, but readin...I know this wasn't your desired effect, but reading this article is making me crave a burger.<BR/><BR/>Sorry man. I'm a carnivore at heart. (Assuming I have a heart. I suppose I need to examine my internal issues to verify that.)insomniachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02968135877475135480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165461493038509472006-12-06T21:18:00.000-06:002006-12-06T21:18:00.000-06:00"I understand that if you like your pet or were mo..."I understand that if you like your pet or were moved as children by such works as Bambi, Old Yeller, or Charlotte's Web but you also think it's OK to eat animals, you've probably got some internal issues to work out."<BR/><BR/>Explain to me why I probably have internal issues?Blue Viking Devilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816148189650832893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23140411.post-1165449858104095932006-12-06T18:04:00.000-06:002006-12-06T18:04:00.000-06:00As a basketball fan, I can honestly say changing t...As a basketball fan, I can honestly say changing the basketball was dumb. And so is David Stern, the King of Pointless Rules to Get My League in the Paper.<BR/>http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/061130Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com